Podcast - Inside the Growing World of Rodeo

Kayla Pragid: Welcome to today's episode of "The Tack Room," where we will explore the world of rodeo. I'm your host, Kayla Pragid, chair of Holland & Knight's Equine Industry Team, and I am so thrilled to have with us today Nykolas McKissic, who is a distinguished attorney here at Holland & Knight in our Dallas, Texas, office, as well as distinguished guest Denton Edwards, who are both deeply in the rodeo scene and who will help us unpack the complex world of rodeo and team roping specifically. 

Starting with Nyk McKissic, he specializes in providing strategic counsel to clients in the areas of tax-exempt organizations, philanthropy and charitable giving – including, and what's most exciting to me, is he assists a lot of our equine clients with donating horses to universities, equine-related charities and other entities. He's also a skilled Western rider, as well as an avid rodeo fan that currently trains and raises ranch and roping horses. Our special guest today is Denton Edwards. He is the co-owner and founder of Stretch Roping Dummies, a rodeo company based in Texas that is revolutionizing how ropers train. Denton is an entrepreneur, roper and innovator who has built this business around finding a hole in [a] growing market and filling in an affordable, dependable and effective product. Denton combines both practical arena experience with a sharp business mindset, and I am so excited for you guys to meet them today.

Today, we will dive into kind of the nuts and bolts of rodeo, what it takes to compete, what exciting events are on the horizon and also some of, frankly, the real challenges facing the industry that so many of us love. So Nyk and Denton, welcome to the show. We are so glad to have you guys today. I am going to start with both of you. I really think the listeners are going to want to know how did you guys both get into rodeo and team roping? And I guess for you, Denton maybe, how did you go from competing in team roping events to really starting a roping company and making these products that can help ropers train? So maybe Nyk, let's start with you.

Nykolas McKissic: Yeah. I think, Kayla, first off, thank you so much for having us on today. I think it's really great to be here with the podcast and then also be here with a close friend of mine, Denton Edwards as well, who I've known since college. Great guy and just a great person. But with respect to your question, I think what got me into rodeo and team roping specifically, I think is, just [like] everything else in my life, is my family. So, you know, my mother got me going out to a cousin of mine, Danny Dangerfield, who took in off the track thoroughbreds to teach them how to do Western riding, Western pleasure riding, and then also a little bit of roping and rodeo. And I think that was kind of my initial introduction into kind of the industry and into the sport. And then I think as a kid, I started getting the opportunity to watch Professional Rodeo Cowboy Association World Championships, the National Finals Rodeo and really got to see how competitive a lot of the cowboys and cowgirls were and just that strong desire to win. But at the same time, all of the competitors really supporting each other and really creating a very warm, welcoming environment. And I think with respect to team roping specifically, I've just always loved the teamwork element of it. It's the only event in rodeo that requires two cowboys [and] two horses. And I think another cool thing is you get to stay on your dang horse, so you can do it as an old man, which is really cool. So I think that's kind of my introduction to the sport.

Kayla Pragid: That's so funny, and I think it's funny that you've loved, or so interesting that you loved rodeo for so long, and yet we got blessed with you being a lawyer at our firm as well. And that's what I love about our equine team, is we have such diverse folks that truly compete, understand the sports, and yet, our fantastic lawyer is also helping folks. So Denton, tell us a little bit about you and how you got into rodeo and specifically opening your company.

Denton Edwards: Yeah, definitely. Kayla, Nyk, first off, thank you so much for having me. Nyk, what a bunch of great points. I had these notes and now I'm trying to revision in my head what I even want to say. I think that a misconception for a lot of people when it comes to rodeo or team roping is that you have to grow up on a big ranch in Montana and have a hundred horses and that's got to be your lifestyle. That was not it for me at all. I grew up in town, in Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW), in a gated community. My grandpa is the reason I even am interested in horses or team roping or rodeo as a whole. He had some horses and thankfully I spent a lot of time with him. He was a huge, huge person in my life, and we would go to the rodeo, the Mesquite Rodeo, and we would ride in the grand entry, and so that's kind of how I got involved with horses originally. But team roping, truthfully, like every young kid that watches anything about rodeo, I wanted to be a bull rider. Aside from me being too tall to be successful there I was also scared to death every time I ever tried that when I was a little kid. So back to Nyk's point, you can stay on your horse and team roping and do it as an old man for longevity. Team roping was a much better fit for me. So I started learning how to team rope. Because I knew how to ride horses and go into different places around team roping, [it] was kind of fun. It gave me the ability to compete. I've always competed in sports, and team roping was another way to compete as well. And then when it came down to how we started the company, the reason that we started Stretch Roping Dummies is because we saw a hole in a market for an affordable, dependable and effective roping dummy. There [were] good roping dummies, but they were very high priced. There was nothing for the working man, if you will. Team Roping is a whole large demographic of different people and different income levels, and there wasn't anybody that was still on a roping dummy that you could depend on that was at an affordable rate. We saw some guys selling a roping dummy and bought some. They were trash, like they broke in the first week, but I noticed that there was a hole for that, and there was lot of people that wanted to buy those. So we started making those, and it's just been a long road to where we are now.

Kayla Pragid: That's such an interesting story. And I love when things organically come together and fill a hole in the market as opposed to something that folks don't need. So I think I want to take it back to the basics. Some of our listeners have never been to a rodeo or don't follow rodeo or Western or team roping. And I think, Nyk, if maybe you can start at the basics and tell us, what is rodeo? How do the competitions work for team roping specifically that you guys are both into? Do you get points? Do you win prize money? How does it work for our audience?

Nykolas McKissic: Yeah, sure Kayla, and Denton, feel free to chime in any time you want, man. But I think, you know, specifically with rodeo, I think rodeo is basically a competitive sporting event where cowboys and cowgirls and other equine athletes – their horses – they compete in timed events and rough stock events. And basically, the rough stock events test basically an athlete's strength and balance in certain riding events, like bull riding, saddle bronc riding, bronc riding is another one. And [in] these events, the athlete tries to obtain a highest score of up to 100 points. And basically what happens is the rider can score a maximum of 50 points, and then their animal, right, like as Denton kind of referred to in bull riding, the bull can score up to 50 points in the round. Whoever has the highest amount of points wins that round all the way through a final. So typically, if it's a series rodeo, you have multiple nights of a rodeo, and cowboys and cowgirls are able to win prize earnings at the end of each night. And then they go to the finals to try to get a big check at the end of the night. So that's how the overall thing works, but you have rough stock events, which I just kind of explained, but then you also have your timed events, which is kind of what team roping falls into. And then the timed events, right, these events consist of events where cowboys and cowgirls and their equine friends kind of compete for the fastest time in certain events, such as team roping, breakaway roping, barrel racing, things like that. Essentially, the rodeo, it kind of originates – or the modern rodeo anyway – originates from basically the daily work that, you know, cowboys and cowgirls were doing on ranches in the 19th century and still today. So it really originates from a lot of the work that a lot of cowboys and cowgirls are doing daily in their everyday life. But I think another aspect of rodeo today is just the major entertainment element of it. For example, a lot of large rodeos have a lot of large entertainment afterwards. Concerts, light shows, entertainment in between events. It's a really big old dang production. So I think that's one of the key elements about rodeo. And then I think with team roping, that is just an industry that's really honestly taken a mind of its own, and I think Denton can certainly speak to that as well.

Kayla Pragid: Yeah, that's one thing I've been so interested to see in the industry, is the development and how big it's become, especially in the last decade, at least from my perspective. And it makes sense, Nyk, that you're saying they've added these other elements in to really make it an experience instead of just a single equestrian event. And I think that has really drawn people in. And Denton, I know that you have been heavily involved in the U.S. Team Roping Championships and also the World Series of Team Roping. Can you just explain the difference between when Nyk says a rodeo versus these other, you know, the U.S. Team Roping Championships (USTRC) or the World Series? What are those? And how do folks compete in them?

Denton Edwards: Yeah, absolutely. So a rodeo is combined of a multitude of different sports, from bull riding to saddle bronc riding to calf roping, team roping, barrel racing. It's all of the rodeo sports in one show basically. Whereas team roping is just one of those events and at a bigger level basically. So the USTRC and the World Series Team Roping Organization, the easiest way to try and put this is it's kind of like the Professional Golf Associaion (PGA). They're kind of the governing factor over team roping and they put together events, and people go to them and they're able to put their money in and enter money. And if you win, you win money back. For example, like the World Series, the difference, I guess, between the PGA and these events is that the PGA is the top 1 percent or even less of the world's players playing golf. This deal, you have a handicap system. But at every single level, they have events that are relative to what your level of competition is, and you can compete against those same people for ridiculous amounts of money. I say ridiculous, which is all relative, but for example, the World Series, they have the finals in Vegas. You can qualify by going to events throughout the year and winning first through fifth in one of those events, you can qualify that way, or you can simply pay each side [a] $2,500 entry fee per person and go up there, it's in Las Vegas in December, at the same time as the National Finals Rodeo also, but you can go up in rope for $400,000, split $400,000. So to me, it's a crazy thing for somebody that's just a regular average Joe guy to be able to essentially gamble $2,500 on himself to compete against other people of his same level and potentially walk away with a $200,000 check in eight hours of being somewhere. That's kind of that in a nutshell, that is what they're trying to get to, or what they have gotten to, but I'm saying that's what everybody in team roping is trying to do. Like, you go to these different events throughout the United States all the time – they're called jackpots – you basically put your money up and then at the end of the day you find out who had the best time, and that person gets paid.

Kayla Pragid: Do you think the prize money being so high has encouraged more folks to participate than historically has been the case?

Denton Edwards: Oh, absolutely. When I was a little kid, I mean, you would go to opens and it would be $10 a man enter up, meaning every time you wanted to rope, it was $10, and it was awesome because if you think about it fundamentally, like my $100 goes way further there, right? I can go get 10 runs, go up with 10 different people, have 10 different chances to win with them. The odds are a little bit better in my favor, but the payout is awful. Like you've got 200 teams show up, $10 a man, maybe it pays $500 to win it. Whereas I can go to Las Vegas one time a year, I can spend $2,500, rope with one single person, and if we do well, like I said, we can split $400,000. When you talk about $400,000 splitting in one day, I mean, I don't really care what your financial situation is, that's life-changing money to anybody, for the most part, that goes to it. So to answer your question directly, yes, I think by them putting together these very large events that have very high payouts that has encouraged not only newer people to come into the sport, but additionally, people who have been in the sport to really try to dig in and make those their goal and try to accomplish that.

Kayla Pragid: Have you seen, Denton, an influx in people wanting to do the sport because of it? For example, do you attribute any of the additional prize money to folks, for example, [to] the success of your company? Folks wanting to get into it, wanting to train and take it more seriously because of the prize money, or do you attribute that to something else?

Denton Edwards: I honestly don't think that people like, for example, someone who's never roped before, I don't that they are putting together, oh, I could go make $400,000 in Vegas or split $400,000. I don't think that's what gets anyone started. I think that the majority of people get started because their friend is in it or they love horses and they want to find some way to compete. For me, my favorite thing about team roping as a 32-year-old washed-up athlete is that it still allows me to go out and compete anytime I want to, right? There's not very many things that I can find, that I can go out and compete against other people. So to answer your question, no, I really think that the higher payout is something that you start thinking about once you're actually in it and competing.

Kayla Pragid: That makes sense to me, but maybe it does encourage people to train a little harder if they already love it. And Denton, what does it look like if I today wanted to start team roping or doing a different rodeo event, and I came to you or your company, what advice would you give me or how would you walk me through what I should do to get started? Training, buying a horse, leasing a horse. What advice would you give me? Or the average person who wants to get started?

Denton Edwards: Sure. I think there's two sides to the coin. So one has to do with your horsemanship, and one has to do with your ability to swing a rope and put the rope where you want it to, right? So if somebody comes with zero horsemanship, I think it's important to start out there because you really can't compete in team roping without being able to ride a horse. I think that you don't have to be the best horseman in the world to be a team roper. I mean, there's a bunch of guys that barely can sit up there and they still win money. So I think that's fine. I think you do need to know how to ride a horse. On the roping side of it, I think it goes back to golf. I think that if anybody can get relatively OK pretty quick and it takes a very, very long time and a whole lot of focus and try to be able to get good at it. You know what I mean? It's easy to try to golf because a lot of people play golf. Give me from zero to, you know, never swinging in a golf club, I'm pretty sure that in a few weeks of me trying, I'd be able to hit the golf ball relatively straight and a few good ones. Same thing in team roping. If I give you a rope and get you a ground roping dummy and you stand there in your backyard every night and practice a little bit, watch some videos of other people and kind of, you now, develop a technique, it's not going to take you very long to find success catching the dummy on the ground. Putting all that together – getting on a horse, going to a rope-in, going in a motion while the cow's moving and you're moving and roping it and all that – is considerably harder to kind of get done.

Kayla Pragid: That makes sense to me. And I also wonder, too, for folks just starting out, what, from a safety perspective, that looks like. Because obviously, like you said, your horsemanship is a really big factor in being able to stay on the horse and maneuver the horse. Nyk, going to you, there's obviously a danger element to rodeo in any equestrian event or sport because horses are unpredictable and bulls are unpredictable. But what safety protocols, training methods or just common industry standards are there for newer riders that want to get started to assure them that this is a sport where you can safely operate?

Nykolas McKissic: Yeah, Kayla, I think that that's a great question. I think the biggest one kind of goes back to what Denton was saying with respect to your horsemanship. I think the most common method for individuals is just to perfect their craft and perfect their horsemanship. And that really does start, to Denton's point, especially with starting from the ground up. I learned how to rope with a bale of hay with a set of horns attached to the front of it. And now, right, I think newer riders, younger folks, and people who are a little bit more green in terms of team roping or roping in general have a great product, right? With respect to being able to go to the internet, go to stretchropingdummies.com, select Denton's product and really be able to pick up the basics in terms of how to swing a rope, how to maneuver a rope, how to handle a rope, all before they get on a horse and start yanking on its mouth and confusing the horse and building a lot of these bad habits. And I think the industry as a whole, right, has done a really good job in terms of trying to be really transparent in terms of the way that we operate and the way we do things and trying to keep everybody safe. Whether that's with respect to selling horses, dealing horses and trading horses. I think the industry has really tried to be transparent and we've really tried to lean on each other. Before I go buy a horse or whenever I go look at a horse or if I have lessons at my place and it involves a horse, I'm picking up the phone, I'm calling Denton, I'm calling older cowboys, an older cowboy by the name of Bob Dorn up in Tioga and Collinsville area. So I think it's really just about the industry depending on each other and leaning on each other, and really just trying to do what we can to be smart and to try to protect the space and protect the sector.

Kayla Pragid: And that's interesting because there has been, I would say, over the past couple of years, there's been a lot of talk in the equine industry as a whole about safety and safety protocols. And I love that Denton, your product allows people to practice a lot before they're really getting into the ring and doing rodeo in a team way. And so for these new potential rodeo riders or just people interested in the sport, Nyk, what are some of the big events that are coming up that people should have on their radar, or whether that's on TV, or live, or exciting championships. What should people be looking out for if they're new to the sport and want to dip their toe?

Nykolas McKissic: Oh, yeah, I mean, there's quite a few and I'm sure I'll probably miss a couple, but I think especially right now, with respect to rodeo season in general, I think we're in the middle of the Texas swing, and that's a series of kind of high-stake winter rodeos that take place here in Texas between January and April. And these rodeos are really critical for cowboys that are trying to get to the NFR at the end of the year. Really big payouts, high, large entertainment. And the rodeos, the core of the rodeo, it really involves the Sand Hill Stock Show and Rodeo in Odessa, the Fort Worth Stock Show and Rodeo here in Fort Worth that took place in February, the San Antonio Stock Show Rodeo, and then Rodeo Houston – I believe, me and my wife and my entire family will actually be taking a trip down to Houston for two nights to go to Rodeo Houston – and Rodeo Austin as well. So that comprises the Texas swing, but there's also [the] Windy Ryon Memorial Roping event that will take place this spring. I think Denton can actually speak to that a little bit more, but that is an awesome roping event that kind of showcases the world's top ropers and team roping: breakaway, tie-down roping, you name it. Really an awesome event and also a great organization that provides scholarships to young Texans here across Texas. So doing some really great work in the community, but they also put on a heck of an event in terms of giving everybody the ability to come out and see and showcase some of the top ropers. And I think the last one kind of going into the summertime, I would be kind of remiss if I didn't mention Cheyenne Frontier Days. That is a very, very large rodeo, outdoor rodeo that takes place in late July. It's held annually. You can see that on the TV, but if you're wanting to make a trip this summer, and that is something that I would also kind of recommend. Great, fantastic rodeo and you're going to see a lot of big names out that way. So, I would probably say that's kind of my list, but again, I'm sure I'm missing a couple.

Kayla Pragid: Denton, do you have any more you could think of, or you think Nyk covered them all?

Denton Edwards: Golly, I mean, he did an excellent job, I think. He talked about all the upcoming rodeos, like the big rodeos. If you're in Texas, I mean, he just laid it out for you. Like, you know, Houston, San Antonio, Odessa, Fort Worth. Those are pretty much the big rodeos here. And then team roping, yeah, the Windy Ryon, what a great place to go. It's on a Saturday in May, it's a really good time. The USTRC championship, that'll be in Fort Worth, April 19 to the 26. No, I mean, Nyk, I think he did an excellent job. Cheyenne is one of the most famous rodeos in the entire world. It's very historical. Yeah, if you want to branch out and travel, then Cheyenne is the place to go.

Kayla, I did want to touch on one thing real quick. You were talking to Nyk about safety. This is a plug, but it's also super important for me. So in team roping, there's no real safety aspects. There's not a whole lot of liability, honestly. Maybe freak accidents where your horse falls or something like that, but that's not really able to, you know, prevent anyways. The one single common injury in team roping is people cutting their thumbs off. The way that it happens is basically when you go to dally, dallying is – sorry, it's hard to say this without visualizing it – but basically when you rope the cow's head or rope the cow's feet, to stop that, you tie your rope, or you dally, wrap your rope around your saddle horn. All of this is happening extremely fast and there's a lot of weight pulling against each other. Gravity is not in your favor here. So if your thumb was to get caught inside the rope in between your saddle horn and your rope, it's very likely that you will cut it off and for sure damage it. It happens a lot more often than people really even talk about. And the one thing I was going to say is there is actually a product, Jahew Thorp, one of my good buddies, he has a product called the Bulldog Thumb Protector. So it goes inside of your glove and it prevents you from cutting your thumb off. It's a great product. It's giving back to the community. I tell him all the time, he's selling helmets in 1970. So what I mean by that is in 1970, people didn't wear helmets riding bicycles. Now there's enough research and data to show like, hey man, you should probably wear a helmet. Like it's just good practice. Same thing with this deal. I think in the future that everybody is going to wear these Bulldog Thumb Protectors because it doesn't make sense not to. All these different things for something that may or may not happen, but it's likely to happen the more that you participate in the sport. So that was my one plug and touch just because I feel so strongly about it, but I think everyone should at least look into the Bulldog Thumb Protectors for team roping events.

Kayla Pragid: That makes sense. And we have seen, we've had some other guests on our podcast that have talked about kind of increased safety protocols and how that's been really important for retention of both the athletes and the fans, frankly, both the health and welfare of the animals and the jockeys in the sense of racing or, you know, jumpers for show jumping and now rodeo. So I think that push towards safety is really helping keep the industries honest and keep the fans coming. And so that leads me to my next question for you, Denton, is, one thing we've talked with a couple of guests about on the podcast is how are you getting, or how is the rodeo and Western sports, equestrian sports, getting younger audiences or new demographics of people interested in the sport? Because you touched on it a little bit before, I think Nyk did, or maybe you did with the concerts. Is there anything else the sport is doing to bring kids or young folks to the sport, to the events, into training and riding?

Denton Edwards: I mean, the quick answer is TikTok. I mean, kids see things on TikTok every day and then they start picking it up. So like team roping has really took fire on TikTok with the younger generation. But to Nyk's point, I think that like people who are around horses to any capacity or have relations with people who have horses or whatever, they are much more susceptible into getting into something like team roping as opposed to someone who, you know, an inner city kid in Chicago. Like, I've never been to Chicago, but I presume they don't have a whole lot of horses in the town of Chicago, or at least in the city of Chicago. So with rodeos having concerts or shopping, or all these different things that aren't just the rodeo, it brings that crowd or those type of people in, and they come because they're interested in shopping and then they see something like, oh, man, I could do that. Or, oh, that looks awesome, I could try that. And they go to the rodeos and they see stuff. And I think that's how they kind of get kicked off. But I would say those two things. TikTok, things go crazy on TikTok for no rhyme or reason or because you know, whatever. And then people going to rodeos that actually have no interest in horses or anything, finding interest in it while they're there.

Kayla Pragid: That's great. Yeah, we've had other guests say something similar, is just making sure that you have a really good social media presence has been really impactful in reaching different demographics and younger folks. What, Denton, on the flip side of that, what would you say are some of the biggest challenges that are facing rodeo and team roping as an industry right now, and whether, I guess, from a business perspective, or maybe even animal welfare, what are those challenges, and what do they look like?

Denton Edwards: You know, I thought about this question and I'm sure that people can come up with problems about anything. I feel like rodeo is potentially the best place it's ever been in the history of rodeo. I mean, people were saying that it was a dying sport. It's not. If you were to talk to people at the San Antonio rodeo or at Houston or at these big rodeos, they're going to see an influx in people coming in every year. They've seen a higher return of people coming every year. So as far as what is holding it back, I don't think anything's holding it back. I think that it's a growing sport, a growing group of people. And I think it will continue that way.

Kayla Pragid: That's great and good to hear. Nyk, you know, I couldn't let you go without at least one legal question. And so I'd like to understand, from your perspective being both an athlete in the sport and also a lawyer, what do you perceive to be some of the legal issues that are most common in the Western world of rodeo, from [an] individual perspective, a business perspective, a liability perspective, what do you see those issues being that folks should look out for and be aware of?

Nykolas McKissic: Yeah, no, no problem, Kayla. And great question. I think from our perspective as an advisor and also as an avid fan of the sport, I think there's the common issues that you see from a legal perspective, right? Does our organization have the appropriate insurance for this team roping event? Do we have waivers and liability for our contestants, right. We're always worried about the personal liability or the slip and fall instances. And have we looked at contracts with our vendors, right? We talked about earlier that rodeo has kind of taken a different turn in terms of being a very large production. So with any show, you're going to have vendors, you're going to have people that are coming in, entertainers, and really looking at what those contractual agreements look like. But I think in addition to those really common issues, I think that there's also those not-so-obvious things that rodeo organizations have to be aware of, especially organizations that are operating as tax-exempt organizations. What is our unrelated business income tax profile look like? Have we really looked what it would look like if the IRS came and took a look under the hood? How are we handling contributions of complex gifts, right? We're a rodeo organization and it would be really nice if we got charitable contributions of horses or bulls of some sort of an old farmer or rancher who's cleaning out. How we analyze our scholarship program from a tax-exempt or a tax perspective. Charitable solicitation registrations. There's a myriad of things that I think that organizations don't typically tend to look at just because it's not top of mind and because I think things are going so well. So I think it's always important to take a look at those things from a legal perspective. But, you know, from a business perspective, I also think that it's important, and I think this is the fan side of me talking, is just to understand that risk is just so much more than just legal risk. And I think as an advisor, as a person who just wants to grow the sport, and I've talked to Denton about this, it's just really understanding that risk, as a fan and as a person who wants to grow the industry, is really just more so about the possible downside of any business decision. So I think rodeo organizations have to think about risk from a much broader context from just the legal perspective, right? What does volunteer risk look like? What does our event risk look like? What does our financial risk look like? What does our legal risk look like? And I think all of these different risk profiles make up each organization's kind of enterprise risk management and how they go about operating their business. And I think it's really important for organizations to continue to be innovative, but also think about the legal risk and the operational risk that's associated with trying to expand and trying to get people in the seat. So very long-winded answer of saying that there's a lot of stuff that they need to think about, I think. 

Kayla Pragid: I love that because when our firm first started the equine group, there was really a need in the market for both education on how we can help protect clients. And I love that you also help a lot of our clients with charitable donations of horses, and just a little plug for you because you've done some great work for some of my clients as well as if folks have horses that have maybe an injury and are not fully capable of jumping or racing or it being in rodeo, but perhaps they do really well with a university that has a veterinarian clinic where they can get incredible care. I've had some clients, Nyk's helped us donate horses and instances like that that have been great for the horses to get A+ care and also great for the clients. So lots of legal issues surrounding the equine industry, for sure.

I want to thank both Nyk and Denton for joining us today in "The Tack Room" for what I thought was a truly engaging discussion on the development of the sport, how you get involved, different equipment that folks are using and frankly, just an intro into the sport. I have so many incredible equine clients and our firm does, but a lot of them are not in rodeo. And so I love that we got to hear about rodeo and a different side of things. So thank you so much for joining us and thank you for everyone for tuning into "The Tack Room."